using Dayton Reference 10's in a tower?

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kevox
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using Dayton Reference 10's in a tower?

Postby kevox » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:28 am

Alright so I'm leaving for Mobile Dynamics this Sunday WOOT!!! :cwm21:

Now since I won't have my car there to do a project with I'm planning on doing a pair of towers for the home (I'll ship them back if I have too; the $60-100 will be well worth it!) and right now I'm set on using one Dayton Reference 10" in each tower along with 3 6" mids and the 9950C Usher tweets.

Now my questions are as follows...

1. Given 100w RMS (or possibly 125w RMS) how do the 10" Reference speakers perform when it comes to down n' dirty bass?

2. They will definitely be sealed off from the 3 mids and tweet so how much air space should I give them? I'm sure this I'll get some real professional help with these questions during my stay at MD but it doesn't hurt to get an idea of things ahead of time, right? I was thinking 1.0 cu/ft net...

3. Should I port the 10's or just keep em sealed since I will still have a dedicated sub for the home? If I port them, I was thinkin' something like 45hz? is that too low, too high, what. Just some ROUGH calculating leads me to believe my Infinity 6.5" bookshelf speakers are tuned right at 60hz with a 2" port (this is based on estimating the size of the cabinets off the top of my head and punching the numbers into winisd...) so 45hz doesn't sound unreasonable for a decent 10" to me.

Really the reason I'm asking if they'll do well on bass or not is because I'll have to use my current sub amp (Carvin CP900 - 2ch amp; it does 300w RMS x 2 @ 4ohms which is where I'd aim to have each tower wired and then 450w RMS x 2 @ 2ohms which is how I have it wired to the sub now) to power the beastly towers since I really don't want ot power them off my JVC receiver sending out 100w x 2 to the front speakers...so I'd EVENTUALLY buy a 2nd, larger rack amp for the sub but that would take me awhile since I still need to buy the drivers for the towers...so it'd just be nice to know if I could still bump without a sub for a couple months, know what I mean?

BTW: any criticisms on driver selection or mid:midbass:tweet ratio are welcome so long as they are followed with other recommendations:D
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Postby TommyTheCat » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:14 am

1. dont use three mids

2. what sub do you have?
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Postby Atomic Fusion » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:10 am

kevox wrote:Alright so I'm leaving for Mobile Dynamics this Sunday WOOT!!! :cwm21:

Now since I won't have my car there to do a project with I'm planning on doing a pair of towers for the home (I'll ship them back if I have too; the $60-100 will be well worth it!) and right now I'm set on using one Dayton Reference 10" in each tower along with 3 6" mids and the 9950C Usher tweets.

Now my questions are as follows...

1. Given 100w RMS (or possibly 125w RMS) how do the 10" Reference speakers perform when it comes to down n' dirty bass?

2. They will definitely be sealed off from the 3 mids and tweet so how much air space should I give them? I'm sure this I'll get some real professional help with these questions during my stay at MD but it doesn't hurt to get an idea of things ahead of time, right? I was thinking 1.0 cu/ft net...

3. Should I port the 10's or just keep em sealed since I will still have a dedicated sub for the home? If I port them, I was thinkin' something like 45hz? is that too low, too high, what. Just some ROUGH calculating leads me to believe my Infinity 6.5" bookshelf speakers are tuned right at 60hz with a 2" port (this is based on estimating the size of the cabinets off the top of my head and punching the numbers into winisd...) so 45hz doesn't sound unreasonable for a decent 10" to me.

Really the reason I'm asking if they'll do well on bass or not is because I'll have to use my current sub amp (Carvin CP900 - 2ch amp; it does 300w RMS x 2 @ 4ohms which is where I'd aim to have each tower wired and then 450w RMS x 2 @ 2ohms which is how I have it wired to the sub now) to power the beastly towers since I really don't want ot power them off my JVC receiver sending out 100w x 2 to the front speakers...so I'd EVENTUALLY buy a 2nd, larger rack amp for the sub but that would take me awhile since I still need to buy the drivers for the towers...so it'd just be nice to know if I could still bump without a sub for a couple months, know what I mean?

BTW: any criticisms on driver selection or mid:midbass:tweet ratio are welcome so long as they are followed with other recommendations:D


I agree on not using three mids.

If my 7" Dayton Reference are any indictation, the 10's should be excellent, provided they are in the right enclosure.

I would generally give the midrange drivers as much volume as you can afford to. Another option I like to impliment is actually venting the midrange drivers out the back of the speaker with stuffed pipe, but that is only ideal for small midrange drivers.

3. You are taking blind shots in the dark and it's going to cause you trouble. Stop thrashing and guessing, and sit down with a box design program to figure it out. I'll tell you right now that 45 hz is probably far too high.


On general comments, I think your system has a serious identity crisis. If you are implimenting a sub anyway, you don't need to have a 10" driver in each cabinet. You also don't need three midranges. One or two will due.

If you are using a subwoofer, consider dropping the 10" altogether, and using an MTM configuration (tweeter sandwiched by two midranges) with Dayton Reference 6" or 7" drivers. They are very competent on the bass by themselves, and with a subwoofer you won't have any troubles.

Your enthusiasm is great, but if you want a good system, slow down a little, do some planning and do some research. It's not about slapping a bunch of reputable drivers in boxes and eyeballing tuning frequencies and crossover points. You'll be far happier with a properly planned result, and may save yourself some money as well.

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Postby kevox » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:36 pm

Ok I won't use 3 mids; is there any reason I should note for next time though? It's easy to follow blindly; it's even easier to follow knowingly:) In that case I'll go with 2 per tower.
3. You are taking blind shots in the dark and it's going to cause you trouble. Stop thrashing and guessing, and sit down with a box design program to figure it out. I'll tell you right now that 45 hz is probably far too high.
Ya I wasn't going to actually start buying/building anyways. Like I said this whole thing is going to take place from teh design-up at Mobile Dynamics - where I will have excellent guidance on the project as well as professional recommendations on which way to go.

If f45hz is too high; sweet:) I was just thinking since the subs would dominate the 20-40hz range and the mids the 60hz range, why not the oversized midbass's for the 40-60hz range? But that's fine if they can be tuned even lower hehehe.
To answer the question regarding which sub(s) I will be using it will be one SE15 to start out with and then I'll move up to either 2 SE15's or 1 XXX18 (I have a XXX18 basket with no cone. It would cost more to get it reconed then a 2nd SE15 would so I'm not sure which way I would go at this point).

Even if it wouldn't be necessary; I'd still like to go with a 10" in each tower for the wow-factor:) And also cause, like I said, there won't be a sub hooked up for several months after I scramble the money together to complete the towers so it'd be real nice to have some decent bass in the meantime.. Then there is also my theory that these 10"s would really make the bass evident and "alive" on heavy metal where my SE15 @ 27hz starts to slack off. It'd be nice to keep that impact even on the "lighter" kinds of music. Is this all just a pipe dream?
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Postby Atomic Fusion » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:44 pm

kevox wrote:Ok I won't use 3 mids; is there any reason I should note for next time though? It's easy to follow blindly; it's even easier to follow knowingly:) In that case I'll go with 2 per tower.


There are ways that three identical midrange drivers can be implimented (like having one of them a midrange, and the other two operating in a different frequency band)but not in the way that you are thinking. Having three midranges operating in the same band will cause dispersion and lobing anomolies in the frequency response (among other things), and won't gain you any tangible advantage from having the extra driver.

If f45hz is too high; sweet:) I was just thinking since the subs would dominate the 20-40hz range and the mids the 60hz range, why not the oversized midbass's for the 40-60hz range? But that's fine if they can be tuned even lower hehehe.
To answer the question regarding which sub(s) I will be using it will be one SE15 to start out with and then I'll move up to either 2 SE15's or 1 XXX18 (I have a XXX18 basket with no cone. It would cost more to get it reconed then a 2nd SE15 would so I'm not sure which way I would go at this point).


IIRC, the Reference 10's need a sizable enclosure and tuned quite low. I've played with them on paper but decided against using them.

It may be possible to go with an undersized ported enclosure, coupled with a tuning frequency around 35-40 Hz. This would give very good midbass impact. However, it doesn't work with every driver, and I'm not sure it would work with the Dayton.

Even if it wouldn't be necessary; I'd still like to go with a 10" in each tower for the wow-factor:) And also cause, like I said, there won't be a sub hooked up for several months after I scramble the money together to complete the towers so it'd be real nice to have some decent bass in the meantime.. Then there is also my theory that these 10"s would really make the bass evident and "alive" on heavy metal where my SE15 @ 27hz starts to slack off. It'd be nice to keep that impact even on the "lighter" kinds of music. Is this all just a pipe dream?


Honestly, two Reference 7's per tower will rock your world... The towers I have using them are total sleepers. They look very modest, but pump out rediculous amounts of bass (especially for their size) and I use no subwoofer at all.

If you do this, it will allow you to build a simpler and smaller enclosure, build a simpler 2-way crossover instead of 3-way, and will be cheaper as well. They will be very potent without a subwoofer, and if you do choose to add the sub later it'll only get better.

Those are my bestestest reccomendations.

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Postby kevox » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:01 am

Alright man....I like those suggestions:) How much air space do you have for your (2) 7" Reference speakers? Ported, correct? What size is the port? I'm guessing, since my little low-excursion Infinity 6.5" utilizes a 2" port that I should go with a good 3" flared port for a pair of Reference 7"s?


I don't know the first thing about crossovers (yet... I'm hoping to fix this problem while at Mobile Dynamics;)) so it would defintiely be nice to spend less on a 2-way that would still "rock my socks off" then a 3-way.

What do you think of 4 7"s per tower though?:D hehe I figure two things...
1. I like going overboard when it's not too costly and 4 7" mids definitely would be.
2. Those mids are only rated for 60w RMS a piece and I have an available 300w RMS @ 4ohms PER SIDE so I'd really like to take hold of that power;) Plus with 4 I can wire them series/parallel to a single 8 ohm load and, with the 8ohm tweet, the whole tower will wire right up at 4ohms whereas with just 2, it'd only go down as far as 6ohms. I realize that's not a vast power difference (about 70w) but it's less power AND less woofage:p

haha seriously....any reason you wouldn't go with 4 7" per side other than cost? Man that sounds TIGHT:D
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Postby KU40 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:32 am

kevox wrote: Plus with 4 I can wire them series/parallel to a single 8 ohm load and, with the 8ohm tweet, the whole tower will wire right up at 4ohms whereas with just 2, it'd only go down as far as 6ohms.


This is incorrect. Since the tweeters and woofers don't play the same material their impedences don't get added together. If you have 8 ohm woofers and 8 ohm tweeters your overall load from the system is 8 ohms.
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Postby Derek » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:37 am

kevox wrote:Alright man....I like those suggestions:) How much air space do you have for your (2) 7" Reference speakers? Ported, correct? What size is the port? I'm guessing, since my little low-excursion Infinity 6.5" utilizes a 2" port that I should go with a good 3" flared port for a pair of Reference 7"s?


I don't know the first thing about crossovers (yet... I'm hoping to fix this problem while at Mobile Dynamics;)) so it would defintiely be nice to spend less on a 2-way that would still "rock my socks off" then a 3-way.

What do you think of 4 7"s per tower though?:D hehe I figure two things...
1. I like going overboard when it's not too costly and 4 7" mids definitely would be.
2. Those mids are only rated for 60w RMS a piece and I have an available 300w RMS @ 4ohms PER SIDE so I'd really like to take hold of that power;) Plus with 4 I can wire them series/parallel to a single 8 ohm load and, with the 8ohm tweet, the whole tower will wire right up at 4ohms whereas with just 2, it'd only go down as far as 6ohms. I realize that's not a vast power difference (about 70w) but it's less power AND less woofage:p

haha seriously....any reason you wouldn't go with 4 7" per side other than cost? Man that sounds TIGHT:D




you could go with 4.....2 just running midbass.....and 2 running midrange....

pretty sure 4 running the same range is going to cause problems you don't want.
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Postby kevox » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:14 pm

KU40 wrote:This is incorrect. Since the tweeters and woofers don't play the same material their impedences don't get added together. If you have 8 ohm woofers and 8 ohm tweeters your overall load from the system is 8 ohms.


Oh....so how would I make (1) 8 ohm tweet and x number of midranges wire to 4ohms total?

Derek wrote:you could go with 4.....2 just running midbass.....and 2 running midrange....

pretty sure 4 running the same range is going to cause problems you don't want.
Interesting...so we're back to a 3-way design.
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Postby Derek » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:09 pm

you're not going to need all of that 300 watts.....don't get hung up on trying to get 4 ohms....just get a solid design and go from there....


if you really think you need 300 watts to them...get a 4 ohm tweet :)
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