speaker problem, processing problem....?

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KU40
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speaker problem, processing problem....?

Postby KU40 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:07 pm

I built 3-ways for the center, left, and right channels that consist of 8" Dayton Reference, 6" Dayton Reference, and 1" Dayton classic tweeter. The crossover points are 80-300 for the 8", 300-3000 for the 6", and 3000+ for the tweet. I built the 8's into 1 cube tuned to 60 hz I think and have the 6's in sealed enclosures within the whole enclosure, I forget the size though, maybe .3 cubes. I'd show pictures but my internet at home isn't working right now.

Anyways, my problem is mostly with hearing talking in movies. I use the Dolby Digital processing on my receiver (It's a pioneer something or other, like two years old) for movies, and sometimes it's just hard to hear the voices, but every other sound is fine/great. Everything else comes in great, music sounds terrific on them (though usually I use other processing for that, like Advanced Music). Some TV stations will sound ok, some have the same voice problem. Is this normal for dolby processing, or should I change up my center channel to something that has better midrange (like MTM with 5's and a tweet, for example)?

One thing that may be a problem now is that the center channel is a tad below eye level when sitting due to it's box being so heavy that I can't sit it on the TV and haven't gotten a wall-mount TV stand for it yet. It's below the TV. Could raising it up above the TV help with this? One of my roommates is moving out and I'm hoping to move this all up into his bedroom for a home theater room. The room it's in now is a rectangular living room that's got quite a few odd places (kitchen, hallway, low ceiling in half, raised ceiling in half) that aren't great for acoustics, and it's facing sideways in the raised ceiling portion.

BTW, the rest of my system consists of MTM's for the surrounds (used to be my mains, that's why they're MTMs instead of just MTs) with 7" Vifa.........I forget (yellow cones) in 1 cube for both tuned to 50 hz or so and 1" Peerless soft domes. For the sub stage I have two 12" Crossfire BMF's left over from an old car install in 5 cubes tuned to 24 hz and a 500 watt plate amp from PE. the subs definitely suffer from the acoustics because if you sit in line with them you can barely hear them, just feel it, but go off-axis or down the hallway and it's insane.

btw, this is also posted at force audio for those of you that go there as well.
-Nick aka NS1 aka mopey aka speedbump
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Postby Derek » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:16 pm

i got the same problem....talking is always quiet...but i've got plenty of noise from the center channel when it's action time....it's really weird...and well...i don't like it that much.
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Postby KU40 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:22 am

yep, that's it in a nutshell. It's like voices take a backseat to everything else, which should be the opposite. must be processing then, which I figured. danget.
-Nick aka NS1 aka mopey aka speedbump

Alpine CDA-9827

Crossfire CFQ5.2

JL Audio XR 650csi components, Planet Audio TT2300

Crossfire VR404 on factory rear 6x8's until I get them upgraded

SI 15D2 + 3.8 @ 30 hz + Crossfire BMF 1000D = :)
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Postby eezip » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:42 am

What does it sound like when the receiver is in PLII mode, or stereo mode? Does your receiver have a 'Dolby 3' mode where you just get the front 3 loudspeakers? What about setting the receiver to 'all channel stereo' and then disconnecting all but the center? Are the front trio all the same distance from you? I wouldn't jump to a processing problem until you've tried some other options. If processing not done by Dolby has a suckout in the midrange and the front 3 loudspeakers are level-matched [or at the same distance], then the problem is with the speakers. If you don't have access to a PRAXIS, MLSSA, or some other RTA tool, what about taking a handheld SPL meter and running a freq sweep through the system. It will be very rough but maybe you could find a drop in the vocal range [300-3k or so, some might say 500-5k] and then you could point the finger at the speakers. Finally, some implementations of DD have a mode to boost the midrange for vocal clarity's sake - it's called something like Dialog Enhancement. Not all receivers have it but you could check and see if yours does.
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Postby Atomic Fusion » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:26 pm

I actually think it may be a processing anomaly... I don't know what settings you are using, but if it's pro logic then sometimes such things can pop up... Your center channel may be turned down in volume in the amplifier as well. You wouldn't notice it typically because vocals are the only clear thing that is biased to the center channel.

If it is a problem with frequency response or placement, simply playing vocal music and evaluating the results would rule the speakers out or point to them as the cause. I doubt it is a frequency response issue myself. Sounds very much like a processing thing.

Double check all your wiring, that speakers are plugged into the proper outputs on the back of the amp, and so forth. If you've got your center plugged into, say, a surround channel instead of the center, you wouldn't clearly notice it, but the vocal material would be gone.

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Postby Derek » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:44 pm

mine is all run off of amps....center level is set higher than my mains because it's inefficient as hell...but still....when dialog comes on....it's quiet...and when it's action...my extremii are jumping all over the place and it's kicking out ton of output...

during action passages it's very well balanced across the front....but i strain to hear the talkings....
Here in death's dominion
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I am the one almighty
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Postby KU40 » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:39 am

Yeah I'm using Pro Logic mode. In that mode all voices come from the center channel unless they are meant to be coming from somewhere else intentionally (at least on mine). I played with the preset processing options last night (there are like.....8-10 of them, "movie," "music," "sports," "5-stereo," etc.) and they all add coloring to the sound. I suppose they're meant to basically change the EQ settings for different frequencies, but it's stupid. Voices sound natural in 2-3 modes including pro logic and that's about it, the rest all make them sound thin, twangy or muffled. "movie" mode sounds good, the voices are a bit louder, but most everything else suffers (sounds less dynamic, woofers and subwoofer definitely put out less) so I don't like that too much either.

Eezip, I tried it in 2 channel stereo mode and it sounded ok. should I just chuck my receiver out the window and try to find one that processes better? My old Radio Shack Optimus receiver sounded good that I remember from 4 years ago and I would switch back to that but it doesn't have any outputs for the sub.

My front 3 are not all evenly spaced in front of me. The center channel is about 1' closer to the listener than the L and R towers, but the receiver has settings for how far away each speaker is and I set the center to one foot closer.

I don't have an SPL meter but I suppose I could get one at radio shack for the cheap. I think I just need to play with it some more too, see what else I can figure out.
-Nick aka NS1 aka mopey aka speedbump

Alpine CDA-9827

Crossfire CFQ5.2

JL Audio XR 650csi components, Planet Audio TT2300

Crossfire VR404 on factory rear 6x8's until I get them upgraded

SI 15D2 + 3.8 @ 30 hz + Crossfire BMF 1000D = :)
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Postby eezip » Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:37 pm

Hmm, I'm not sure, but taking my suggestion and playing with the settings may have uncovered some helpful information. How about putting the center channel to the L or R output? If the information playing is similar between L and R, you could compare the main channel to the center channel and possibly determine if it's the loudspeaker or processing. Another option, but more difficult, would be to borrow a receiver [if you can] and see what results you get with your system.

Even though it's pretty cheap, I think you can do more before spending any money for an SPL meter. Continue to check things out and see what you can uncover. The processing modes should be the same for any receiver so I'd hate for you to chuck it if it's not the issue.
HT: Sony KV-27FS13 | Oppo DV-981HD | Denon AVR-2807 | 7x Cambridge MC100 | Acoustic Research ARPR1010 || Stereo: Dynaudio Audience 42 | Hales Concept 3 prototypes | wouldn't you like to know... :)



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Postby Atomic Fusion » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:39 pm

eezip wrote:Hmm, I'm not sure, but taking my suggestion and playing with the settings may have uncovered some helpful information. How about putting the center channel to the L or R output? If the information playing is similar between L and R, you could compare the main channel to the center channel and possibly determine if it's the loudspeaker or processing. Another option, but more difficult, would be to borrow a receiver [if you can] and see what results you get with your system.

Even though it's pretty cheap, I think you can do more before spending any money for an SPL meter. Continue to check things out and see what you can uncover. The processing modes should be the same for any receiver so I'd hate for you to chuck it if it's not the issue.


You're making things too complicated....

Hook the center up to either the left or right channel and see if it sounds normal when playing movies in two channel stereo. It most likely will sound normal, and it's most likely something on the processing end.

Pro Logic simply does a best guess on what belongs in what channel and it can cause all sorts of anomolies.

Adam
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Derek
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Postby Derek » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:15 pm

i'm using all dolby digital or DTS....and having this problem....
Here in death's dominion
Where even shadows die
I am the one almighty
You will cry my name
And when you seek forgiveness
You will see there is no god
And for all eternity
You will cry my name

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