Tumult Drama

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GonadMan2
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Tumult Drama

Postby GonadMan2 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:13 am

Hey Guys, long time lurker, but I haven't posted much...

Anyway I'm from Australia, and I have a Mk 1 12" Tumult that has given me a lot of trouble. Theres a bit of history that I would like to go through first before I get to the crux of my post.

I first bought the sub a couple of years ago to complement my reasonably high end car audio system. I ended up having a few problems with electrical noise and the sub so eventually gave up on the project. Shortly after purchasing the sub I noticed it was giving me lot of 'tinsel slap' noise although I believe it was not tinsel slap. I ended up sending the sub back to the distributor to have it reconed, although this ended up costing me nearly AUD$300 in postage given the weight of the sub and the 6000km trip it took getting there.

They said that the pole was rubbing on the coil - I/They had no idea why and repaired it under warranty. This is what it looked like:

Image
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So they sent it back, and I had it running on my home audio sub amp (about 350wrms) in a 2.5Cuft sealed enclosure when it started making more mechanical noises. This time around it sounded different - less scraping, and more 'clangy.' Upon investigation I saw this:

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So its sat in the cupboard for the past 8 months and I've decided to dust it off and see if I can get it going again, as it truly is a great sub, when its working.

So I removed the Cone and this is what I have discovered:

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Truly awesome.

So what's my next move? Is a mere mortal able to recone a sub like this? Why would the wire come off anyway You can see scorch marks on the frame if you look closely, so maybe too much power? I have a DD 1512 in place of the Tumult at the moment and its taken everything I've thrown at it! I'm not hard on subs, this is the first one that has ever given me any real trouble. Any advice appreciated.
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KU40
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Postby KU40 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:00 am

Sometimes when the coil comes off like that it's from the coil hitting the backplate or jumping the gap and having the coil hit the edge of the top plate on the way back down. It could also be from another misalignment if the bottom of the coil was rubbing on the motor enough to get the end started in coming off the former.

But by that little L shaped bend in the wire right where the coil is coming off of the former, I would guess it had been hitting the backplate. That could bend the wire perpendicular as it got caught underneath.

is 2.5 cubes sealed within the recommendation? It seems a little large for a 12" but I'm not overly familiar with the Tumult. Were you playing a bunch of really low notes (under 25 hz) and had it moving a lot?
-Nick aka NS1 aka mopey aka speedbump
Alpine CDA-9827
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todd.brust
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Postby todd.brust » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:45 am

I was going to say the same thing. 2.5 cu. ft. seems like a big sealed box to be putting a 12 in.
The way I understand it, when you start going into the realms of infinite baffle (when the sealed box volume exceeds the Vas of the driver), the driver will reach it's mechanical limits with relatively low amounts of power (especially at low frequencies like KU40 said). In a situation like that, the sub would probably destroy itself before the coils fry.

That could be what is causing the possible over excursion.

I also wasn't aware that the Tumult came in a 12" version. I guess I learn something new every day.
There he goes, one of god's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live... too rare to die.

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95Honda
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Postby 95Honda » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:56 pm

Man, I hate to see this but I think I can tell you what happened.

The Tumult motors are heavy and it doesn't take much to knock them out of alignment. What I mean is, the back plate can slide to one side and then put the top plate off center with the pole piece. Especially if the adhesives helping hold everything together weren't done properly.

I have had 2 1st generation Tumult motors that wer 10-20 thousands off, this is a huge amount really. As soon as the suspention loosened up and wasn't keeping the voice coil in PERFECT alignment you would start to hear "Clacking" noises, and then if you looked through the windows in the basket you would see the scrapes like in your picture. I sent some of my orinal Tumult motors to RE to have reconed into XXX and they told me they were so out of alignment that they were junk, and I just scrapped them and bought new motors.

OK, now fast forward to the 12" Tumults, really they are MKII, the original series were only 15". This is where Adire began to be in trouble and Dan and the gang were basically trashing drivers togther to get them out the door an keep the money rolling in, basically QC went in the ****er, this was evident by all the fan fare recieved that last year.. So, I hate to say it, but I'd be willing to bet that the motor you have is out of alignment, it probably left the Adire that way without ever being checked, they just dropped in the soft parts and shipped her out.

If you can, get ahold of a micrometer and measure the gap all they way around, if at any two points there is a difference of more than a few thousands of an inch, I hate to say it, but you have an expensive door stop, because it will just keep eating up soft parts if you recone.

If you really like the sub and the sound, there are plenty of XBL2 offerings still avalible, I cannot vouche for the quality, but you never know.

As a side note, if you have any friends that are US military stationed down there, PM me, I could probably help you with shipping.
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GonadMan2
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Postby GonadMan2 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:03 pm

Thank you for the excellent reply 95honda.

I guess you have saved me a lot of drama going through reconing. Unfortunately I dropped a fair bit of coin on this thing, which is something I don't have a lot of anymore (have since bought a couple of houses and so forth) so it would be real nice if I could possibly get it to run. So I have a couple of questions.

The misalignment that you talk about, is this between the basket and the edge of the gap, or the actual gap itself? I could possibly get someone to machine it to spec, or maybe take a few thou off it - the guys onsite here have some big lathes for that sort of work.

I'm just looking at all the avenues I can take, as I said I don't really have the money to drop on a sub like this anymore, but I do have some DIY skills (or know people that can help). I'll take some measurements tonight when I get home.

I did know a fellow that worked at Pine Gap a few years back, as we played tournament baseball together. He was a nice guy but we've never kept in touch, so unforutnately I don't know anyone from the US military stationed down here.
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todd.brust
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Postby todd.brust » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:08 pm

If it is in fact something being mis aligned, I think Fi Car Audio can fix it. I remembered seeing someone that had an XXX with a slug all ****ed up and I found the post. I spent a few minutes searching and found a link.

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15994&hl=dropped+motor

It's worth a try if the motor needs to be fixed.
There he goes, one of god's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live... too rare to die.

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KU40
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Postby KU40 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:37 pm

well, I was almost nearly basically not right.
-Nick aka NS1 aka mopey aka speedbump

Alpine CDA-9827

Crossfire CFQ5.2

JL Audio XR 650csi components, Planet Audio TT2300

Crossfire VR404 on factory rear 6x8's until I get them upgraded

SI 15D2 + 3.8 @ 30 hz + Crossfire BMF 1000D = :)
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jlaine
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Postby jlaine » Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:47 pm

Those types of coil issues are not from physical backplate alignment issues FYI... It's literal assembly problems - coil is scraping against the top plate/gap. If there is no obvious heat issues that is. XBL^2 is nice, but does not permit much in terms of surface area to dissipate heat.
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GonadMan2
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Postby GonadMan2 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:16 am

Ok, so I checked the Voice Coil gap, which is the one I think you are referring to and I get a low of 5.00mm and a high of 5.14mm which I guess is a fair way out. I wonder if this can be machined?
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95Honda
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Postby 95Honda » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:19 am

jlaine wrote:Those types of coil issues are not from physical backplate alignment issues FYI... It's literal assembly problems - coil is scraping against the top plate/gap. If there is no obvious heat issues that is. XBL^2 is nice, but does not permit much in terms of surface area to dissipate heat.


I know what you are saying, but my were so F'd up, that I couldn't even fit the aluminum alignment tool Marshall gave me into mine with stock coils, it was off by that much. If you used shims you could get the coil in there and it wouldn't scrape, but one side would have a gap twice as big as the other......

David Moore laughed at me when he saw the motors, he had no idea how they got that way, but they were F'd up... I actually Fed Ex'd him the pair to see if they could be fixed... I had to buy new ones in the end.. And I have no idea if they got that way from rough treatment (shipping) or they were just built plain wrong. It was so obvious though, you could actually tell by looking straight down at the motor that the parts were off by a ****load, with your naked eyes...

But, you could also look at this as an assembly issue, like you said Josh. Maybe just poor QC if anything...

You can't really machine this away, there are 2 gaps in there, you would have to machine deep into the motor, and even then, you would never get all the bits of metal out and you would mess with the coil geometry.

I don't know what the run-out measurement of the gap should be, I hope someone with more experience here could chime in, but I would guess it shouldn't be more than a few thousands of an inch...

I have no idea if they can re-align them, once they are built and magnetized, that is pretty much it, I think. But you could ask FI.

I asked about the military guy because I could ship anything up to 75 pounds for free to anone overseas in the military, and just pay standard US postage to get it to me in Germany...
http://www.forceaudio.com



Marshall asked me how much it would be to fly to Idaho....

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